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What's happening at BTR *17*
#61
(02-10-2019, 01:55 AM)apoppin Wrote:
(02-09-2019, 11:20 PM)CyberMage Wrote: Mark,
I'd sell that Vega and get a VII if I were you.

A lot of people won't take your benches seriously if you're not running AMD's best, even if it is made of Unobtainium. (Remember the X800XT PE? (Phantom Edition))

Not too mention, it looks like a legit card at MSRP other than noisey.

You could do some GSync vs Adaptive  reviews with FCAT or something.

I appreciate your comments but I don't necessarily agree with you.  Just because I don't have the flagship card does not mean my benchmarks won't be taken seriously.  I am pretty sure that I had an X800XT but not the PE since mine could OC to PE speeds.

If you look at the *most popular* articles that BTR regularly posts - GeForce and Adrenalin Driver Performance Analyses - I don't use the top cards at all.  No one really cares how the RTX 2080 Ti performs as it represents less than 1% of BTR's readership base.  I benchmark primarily using RTX 2060 and RX Vega 56 - two of the most popular (newest) and upper-midrange popular cards.  I also benchmark with GTX 1060 and RX 590 - to see how Polaris and Pascal are performing.

I should have used a Vega 64 aftermarket version instead of AMD's then top card, the Liquid-cooled version.  It skewed the benches.  And now the Radeon 7 won't be worthy of benching for another 2-3 months until the drivers get sorted out, the fan profile fixed, and overclocking worked out.  I may wait a bit and get an aftermarket Radeon 7 unless it really is a placeholder until next generation and will always be a halo impossible-to-get product from a extremely limited production.

(shrugs)

I've never got the "driver X brings 2fps more in game Y and 3fps more in game Z" reviews. The gains are never big enough to do useful things like "Now I can run this game at 4K instead of 1440P" or "Now I can run this game at 8X AA instead of 4X AA". (And a quick review of your driver article on the front page confirms this is still true and then some- why would anyone care if they can run a game 1-2fps faster?)

Your other headline review compares the 4 month old RTX2070 to the 18 month old Vega 64. No age parity, no price parity, and one of the cards is water cooled.
A 2080 vs Radeon VII OCing review might be interesting as the Radeons are on a new node.

Don't know, but I think people would be interested in seeing Radeon 7 stuff just because they are the first big chips on 7nm, have 16GB of HBM2, and are currently AMDs best.
#62
I never understood it either. However, these kinds of driver performance analyses are exceptionally popular and I will continue to cater to BTR's audience that really likes them.

The Radeon VII doesn't OC. The reviewers have already explored it. It may be a few months before AMD fixes its SW to allow for proper undervolting and overclocking.

Of course, people would be interested. But not $700 worth of interested for me. I am going to wait to see if AMD or one of AMD's partners will send me one. If not, I'll skip it this round and wait for Navi this year.
#63
Man, amd is screwed in the gpu space. I just read a review of the Radeon vii. Extremely disappointing. Bad news for gamers also. Hopefully nvidia will nail it with the 7nm node. But they are only competing with themselves.
#64
(02-12-2019, 04:28 PM)SickBeast Wrote: Man, amd is screwed in the gpu space. I just read a review of the Radeon vii. Extremely disappointing. Bad news for gamers also. Hopefully nvidia will nail it with the 7nm node. But they are only competing with themselves.
I would have to be insane to spend $750 on a Radeon VII in its current state.  Let AMD fix it first and let some partners work on it and give it some real cooling.  Their reference design is loud, it doesn't overclock, and it doesn't even have UEFI support

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-ra...38592.html

Quote:Apparently, the 7nm gaming graphics card lacks UEFI support.

The majority, if not all, modern Intel and AMD motherboards have adopted the modern UEFI (Unified Extensible Firmware Interface) firmware. Nevertheless, they are still equipped with a Compatibility Support Module (CSM), whose job is to emulate a conventional BIOS (Basic Input/Output System) environment for certain legacy operating systems and non-UEFI hardware. CSM is normally enabled by default on many motherboards to allow users to plug non-UEFI hardware into their systems without having to tweak any setting inside the UEFI.

According to TechPowerUp's research, the Radeon VII's reference BIOS doesn't come with UEFI support or a GOP (Graphics Output Protocol) driver for the matter. The GOP driver is important as it's the component that's responsible for display duties during the pre-boot process. For the Radeon VII to work properly, the user must have CSM enabled, which means losing Microsoft's Secure Boot feature and potentially increasing boot times during cold boot.

The partners will fix the Radeon VII assuming that AMD lets them design their own cards.  Same thing happened with the god-awful reference Vegas (except for the reference Liquid-cooled edition which is quite decent).  I will be interested in getting one of the AIB cards.  Not this reference card.  I'll take a hard pass on spending my own money on it.

As to AMD being "screwed in the GPU space", everything is temporary.  AMD under Lisa Su's good leadership is pouring R&D money into developing the successor to Polaris and Vega.  AMD neglected RTG funding for a long time, instead concentrating on bringing a great CPU to market.  Now that they have saved their company and are making a lot of money, they can turn their attention to graphics.  Not to mention, Lisa cut most of the deadwood that held AMD back including Raja Koduri and their ridiculous marketing department.  It can only get better.  I'd bet on it if I played the stock market.


Quote:A lot of people won't take your benches seriously if you're not running AMD's best

I believe BTR will get more respect using intelligence and reason instead of following the herd.  The popular Vega and Polaris cards that I benchmark won't change just because a faster card has been released.
Beee

Watch for a new under-NDA review tomorrow AM.  I can't say more.  Then I will follow up with the EVGA Nu Audio sound card review later this week.  And then I'll post a Metro: Exodus review that will focus on performance and IQ - probably by Monday since it launches on Friday.  I simply cannot miss playing and reviewing my favorite game series.  
Gamer4

After that, we'll see.  I may need a break by mid-week, next week
Black_eye
#65
Yeah....but...…

What reason do people have to look at benchmarks of cards released a couple years ago? IIRC soon after a card is released you get a driver with the biggest gains the card will ever see, and after that it's the 1-2fps that doesn't really matter.

So people don't have any reason to look at Vega benches unless they own a Vega and are considering new NVIDIA.

And those people definitely want to see AMDs latest as well, they didn't buy Vegas because they were bang for buck.

My. $.02

And I don't think AMD is "screwed". They gave their fan base and Adaptive sync monitor owners a valid 1080Ti/2080 competitor. The heat/noise metric flips back and forth and means different things to different people. I never cared much about it, loved my Fermi. If I had an adaptive sync monitor I'd buy one. But, I'm still rocking the 35" Agon Gsync panel, so the 1080Ti FE stays.
#66
We definitely agree that AMD is not screwed. However, Nvidia did wise up recently and now supports FreeSync - so you can buy an adaptive sync display also now. I also like my 34" Acer Predator Gsync display, and I guess yours IS bigger by 1" although I am rocking a RTX 2080 Ti along with all of the rest of the Turing cards.
Gamer4

As to popularity, my strategy is working. BTR is sitting near the top 100K in the USA and near the top 200K in the world. There are at least 80,000 unique visitors who visit BTR on average every single month. But I don't do it at all for popularity or for money (or I would be accepting paid content and with pop-up ads and annoying video commercials like there is no tomorrow) - I do it for *me* and just to have BTR support itself, which it is doing now.

I won't support AMD by buying a broken reference card now - on principle. After they fix it, perhaps. And definitely if the partners (read PowerColor) release aftermarket versions of it. Then it will become an interesting card to benchmark. I can skip it safely for now. Even the AMD fans are as happy with it as they were when the Fury X launched (not very) and if you read their social media posts, they are now buying Vega 56 and Vega 64 to tide them over until the next generation - not the Radeon VII. TL:DR They are mostly interested in buying the Vegas now.
/my analysis right or wrong

Here's my latest review. I worked on it day and night since Friday when I got the reviewer's code as a labor of love to complete the 30-hour game and to post the review when the NDA ended less than an hour ago - Metro is my favorite series - not for the views which will be low:
Heart

https://babeltechreviews.com/metro-exodu...me-review/


UPDATE: New hardware is OtW - a mystery package. It means I have to post the Nu Audio sound card review by Friday. Not sure if I can do part 2 of the Exodus (performance) review. It depends on what is coming. I have to be flexible.
#67
Here's another very good reason not to buy a Radeon VII - unbelievable that AMD would only give a 1-year warranty on a $700 card
https://www.amd.com/en/support/kb/faq/rm...old-by-amd
Quote:One Year Limited Warranty Terms and Conditions for AMD Radeon VII Graphics Products Made by AMD and Sold on AMD.com
AMD doesn't cover overclocking either.  A 1-year warranty gets a hard pass from me for spending over $700 on a Radeon 7 reference version besides its other faults (loud/no OC).  And all the reason to wait for a partner version with a 3-year warranty.  

We're back to blasting rain here.  The Pineapple express is delivering inches of (relatively warm) rain to my area again.  My little high desert valley is so green, it doesn't even look like a desert any longer. ... It has lost its charm.  But it means I am forced to stay inside and concentrate on reviewing.  Nu Audio review OtW for the weekend, and at least one more review for next week (not counting the Metro Exodus performance review which I may not even get to at all if it is delayed although I will revisit DLSS in the 3 games that support it when I get a break from committed reviews).
Beee

There is a new Nvidia driver (418.91) out for Metro Exodus (DLSS+RTX global illumination) and for BFV which now has DLSS enabled for ray traced reflections.  I highly recommend Metro Exodus as a great game and an upgraded continuation of the Metro series.  I completed it in about 30 hours.
https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/new...dy-driver/
https://babeltechreviews.com/metro-exodu...me-review/

(02-13-2019, 03:49 PM)apoppin Wrote: We definitely agree that AMD is not screwed.  However, Nvidia did wise up recently and now supports FreeSync - so you can buy an adaptive sync display also now.  I also like my 34" Acer Predator Gsync display, and I guess yours IS bigger by 1" although I am rocking a RTX 2080 Ti along with all of the rest of the Turing cards.
Gamer4

As to popularity, my strategy is working.  BTR is sitting near the top 100K in the USA and near the top 200K in the world.  There are at least 80,000 unique visitors who visit BTR on average every single month.  But I don't do it at all for popularity or for money (or I would be accepting paid content and with pop-up ads and annoying video commercials like there is no tomorrow) - I do it for *me* and just to have BTR support itself, which it is doing now.

I won't support AMD by buying a broken reference card now - on principle.  After they fix it, perhaps.  And definitely if the partners (read PowerColor) release aftermarket versions of it.  Then it will become an interesting card to benchmark.  I can skip it safely for now.  Even the AMD fans are as happy with it as they were when the Fury X launched (not very) and if you read their social media posts, they are now buying Vega 56 and Vega 64 to tide them over until the next generation - not the Radeon VII.  TL:DR They are mostly interested in buying the Vegas now.
/my analysis right or wrong

Here's my latest review.  I worked on it day and night since Friday when I got the reviewer's code as a labor of love to complete the 30-hour game and to post the review when the NDA ended less than an hour ago - Metro is my favorite series - not for the views which will be low:
Heart

https://babeltechreviews.com/metro-exodu...me-review/


UPDATE:  New hardware is OtW - a mystery package.  It means I have to post the Nu Audio sound card review by Friday.  Not sure if I can do part 2 of the Exodus (performance) review.  It depends on what is coming.  I have to be flexible.
#68
Wow look no further than here for proof forums are dead as a communications medium.

80,000 unique visitors a month and you can count regular posters here on one hand?! That is pretty telling unless a lot of the unique visitors are spam bots.

80,000 visit, don't comment. Ancient veterans Apoppin, Sick Beast, GStan and Rollo post, but mainly Apoppin (owns site) and Sick Beast.

I told you these forums were dwindling years ago when you set up ABT.

Anyway, you're in the review business so I get not wanting to buy review samples. (they should be given to you) I guess if it were me I'd sell the liquid cooled Vega and buy a VII, for a few hundred more, then sell that when you can get that or the next thing sampled. But I'm not you, nor would I call my advice infallible.

I don't think you could do any harm getting the 7 though, and people are definitely more interested in that than anything Vega. Head on over to Rage 3d if you want to see how interested people are in Vega in 2019...if it's still there. LOL

http://www.rage3d.com/board/forumdisplay.php?f=45

Over 150 posts about VII, over 150 about CES/VII announcement, 0.0 about Vega.
#69
I wouldn't call ABT and BTR proof that forums are dead as a communication medium.  Look no further than Reddit.  I am very active and even infamous on the r/nvidia and r/amd subs (besides r/hardware, r/oculus, etc.) - there are hundreds of thousands of active redditors on line at any one time.  
https://www.reddit.com/

I stopped putting my energy into building a forum here a few months back and I only visit a few times a day.   I did not want to have a forum at all at BTR but Mario talked me into it.  And it is still a decent place to search topics and to answer questions, and occasionally read a new post from BTR's once forum regulars.  I certainly won't ignore this community - but it doesn't bring any traffic and I am concentrating instead on my writing and reviewing for the main site; this is what I like to do most.  I post here mostly about 'what's happening' and to give a preview of what I am working on and to take suggestions.  

Rage3D is not a forum I ever liked to visit nor Beyond3D; neither are typical forums, and Reddit completely fills my forum needs for now.  The very latest news and rumors always get posted there.

If you want to see what AMD fans really think, check out r/AMD.  Sure there are a lot of posts about the Radeon VII, but most of them are negative, and the advice for "which AMD card should I buy?" almost always gets answered by "Vega, unless you have money to waste".  99% of AMD fans simply can not relate to the Radeon VII any more than 98% of Nvidia fans can relate to the RTX 2080 Ti.  The vast majority of gamers have older and mid-range cards which is why BTR's retro reviews are so incredibly popular.  
https://www.reddit.com/r/amd

I think your advice is generally good, however, in the case of the Radeon VII, a little superficial.  If I get a partner Radeon VII in a few months, why would I spend $700 on an inferior reference version and take a big loss when I sell it?  If I don't get one, it means that the Radeon VII will remain a halo card that won't get a lot of interest as time goes on any more than the Fury X did.  Vega and Polaris are AMD's bread and butter line and it's what I plan to concentrate on.

Also, I am stacked up with reviews and there is literally no end that I can see.  I could do a lot more - if I didn't have to sleep and take care of normal activities.  So I have to budget my time on what interests *me*.  I don't accept too many review offers.  

For example, I am personally interested in the Nu Audio sound card to see if it makes a difference over my (1) integrated audio or (2) my USB sound card and if it is really worth $250.  I used the review as an excuse and upgraded to quality PC speakers just to test it, and I already have an entry-level audiophile set of headphones and high-quality headsets.  It won't get a lot of views any more than my Metro Exodus review - but it is what I like to do.  

I still treat BTR as my hobby site and it works for me.  I don't worry about "traffic" and "popular" very much.  I am mostly concerned that BTR supports itself and that I can continue to post reviews of hardware and games that interest me with the hope that they may be useful to other enthusiasts.  It's all about PC gaming for me and that I get to continue doing what I love to do.
Gamer4

(02-14-2019, 06:18 PM)CyberMage Wrote: Wow look no further than here for proof forums are dead as a communications medium.

80,000 unique visitors a month and you can count regular posters here on one hand?! That is pretty telling unless a lot of the unique visitors are spam bots.

80,000 visit, don't comment. Ancient veterans Apoppin, Sick Beast, GStan and Rollo post, but mainly Apoppin (owns site) and Sick Beast.

I told you these forums were dwindling years ago when you set up ABT.

Anyway, you're in the review business so I get not wanting to buy review samples. (they should be given to you) I guess if it were me I'd sell the liquid cooled Vega and buy a VII, for a few hundred more, then sell that when you can get that or the next thing sampled. But I'm not you, nor would I call my advice infallible.

I don't think you could do any harm getting the 7 though, and people are definitely more interested in that than anything Vega. Head on over to Rage 3d if you want to see how interested people are in Vega in 2019...if it's still there. LOL

http://www.rage3d.com/board/forumdisplay.php?f=45

Over 150 posts about VII, over 150 about CES/VII announcement, 0.0 about Vega.
#70
Here's what I mean about Reddit.  It's the other forum where you can get an answer directly from Nvidia (besides GeForce.com).  This is what Nvidia has failed to do for a long time and now they are interacting with their fans again to answer questions.  This one is outstanding about DLSS.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nvidia/comments..._answered/

I finished listening to music critically and I played completely through Metro Exodus using the EVGA Nu Audio sound card.  I got an advantage playing over integrated MB audio and even better directionality than with my USB sound card.  Best of all, my budget but high-quality desktop speakers allow me to A-B and switch seamlessly in-between sound cards.  

I was blown away by the results.  First of all, I totally surprised that my budget Edifier active desktop speakers are good enough to discern the sonic qualities of 3 separate sound cards - it is just a step down from the quality of my Grado headphones (which are entry-level audiophile).  So I now have a very nice stereo 2.0 system that has got me listening to music again.  

I'll have a review up by Monday.  Then expect two driver performance analyses followed by another review before the week ends.  So I will be ultra-busy. I am going to keep my benching suite at 40 games and drop RE7 in favor of RE2.   Metro Exodus is BTR's latest benchmark and I'll use the built-in utility instead of mine.  Both are very accurate but the built-in test is "worst case" - mine is 10% faster.  I'll use OCAT for the .1ms frametimes because the minimums spit out by the benchmark are screwed-up.


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