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What's happening at BTR *16*
#1
What's happening at BTR *15* is closed since it got too long for easy searching as an archive.  However, feel free to carry over any conversation from there to here as No. 16 is the new catch-all thread of what is happening and related (somewhat) to BTR.

https://www.babeltechreviews.com/communi...p?tid=1360&pid=30181#pid30181

We last discussed Turing and its launch isn't far off; everyone agrees prices are very high compared with the last generation, but we really don't know performance or the impact of RTX ... and there are new drivers for Shadow of the Tomb Raider ... mystery package may be on the way but I can't comment since it is still a "mystery"
Dirol
#2
(09-11-2018, 05:03 PM)gstanford Wrote: Don't buy into the bullshit.

No problem.  I don't buy into BS so I will disregard your flawed prediction post completely in favor of uncovering the real truth soon.

Gamer4

All of this negativity surrounding Nvidia's upcoming Turing RTX launch has stemmed from the steep price increase.  And it has been fanned by AMD fans (yes, stupid pun intended) and shills into a real grassroots marketing campaign.
Aggressive

I see the prices of everything new rising.  I don't like it, but I don't see condemnation and hate posted all over social media for 14TB HDDs that cost starting at $500 when you can get an 8TB drive for 1/4 the price.
https://sea.pcmag.com/toshiba-tr200-480g...ard-drives

Wise people know that the price comes down as tech matures.  If you are not an early adopter, you always save money.  If you don't need to upgrade, why upgrade?  Upgrade when it is right for you, not when "the latest and greatest" drops and you "have" to have it in the rush to brag about it on social media.  This is what marketing loves - but my job as a reviewer is to look at the entire package and the fact that something new is here.  It has to be evaluated in terms of past launches and "value" regarding being the latest; but then it always stands alone and all other considerations apply.  Here at BTR we give *performance* the main consideration in my reviews.  That's why I bench 35 games and leave the moralizing and fine details and nit-picking to others.  I have my own unique observations for each review and I give reasons for my conclusions.  Agree or disagree - it's fine with me; at least a conversation gets started and hopefully interesting information gets presented.

Same with Turing - you don't like the price .. skip it.  If Nvidia doesn't meet their target, they may drop the price like they did with the 280X.  Nitpicking every bit of available information before the reviews comes out is just stupidly counterproductive now.  After the reviews, *then* it's fair game.  

Paladin



TBH, the more I think about it ... keep the negativity coming.  I will consider it in my review in forming a conclusion.

Thank-you.  I didn't like it at first because a lot of it is inaccurate and half-truth, but pre-launch criticism may ultimately be helpful to me in making a better review

Good3

For example attacking VRS as flawed or cheating is just nonsense since it doesn't really apply to pancake games - it is used primarily for VR; although it has already been used (rarely) in games for Pascal like Shadow Warrior 2.
I didn't hear any big complaints back then about it.
Quote:Variable Rate Shading (VRS) optimizes rendering by applying more shading horsepower in detailed areas of the scene and throttling back in scenes with less perceptible detail. This can be used for foveated rendering by reducing the shading rate on the periphery of scenes, where users are less likely to focus, particularly when combined with the emergence of eye-tracking.
#3
What I am hearing is that Volta cost nVidia billions to develop. Who knows how much Turing cost them. However the prices we are seeing could simply be nVidia charging what they have to in order to break even. I'm sure it was not cheap to develop. This could be the new cost of entry. But the way I see it is that ray tracing is a ground breaking and revolutionary feature. nVidia may in fact be losing money on it no matter what they charge. They probably look at ray tracing's development as a sunk cost. Future generations will be cheaper because the feature will have already been developed and they will simply have to scale it up.

So apoppin you are right. Early adopters will pay for it and they will love it. I don't think I will be one of those people, barring something unforeseen.
#4
(09-12-2018, 12:36 AM)SickBeast Wrote: What I am hearing is that Volta cost nVidia billions to develop.  Who knows how much Turing cost them.  However the prices we are seeing could simply be nVidia charging what they have to in order to break even.  I'm sure it was not cheap to develop.  This could be the new cost of entry.  But the way I see it is that ray tracing is a ground breaking and revolutionary feature.  nVidia may in fact be losing money on it no matter what they charge.  They probably look at ray tracing's development as a sunk cost.  Future generations will be cheaper because they feature will have already been developed and they will simply have to scale it up.

So apoppin you are right.  Early adopters will pay for it and they will love it.  I don't think I will be one of those people, barring something unforeseen.

I would say Turing cost Nvidia a fortune. It is the biggest change to Nvidia's architecture since T&L.

Damn right it is expensive.

I am reading some things that you just don't have access to yet. Wait a few more days.

But keep the negativity coming, Greg. It's your recent pattern to hate new things (Win 10/DX12/resolutions higher than 1080P) - but why not?
- you have a good gaming system that suits you. When you feel like upgrading, you will. Until then, it's sour grapes no matter what Nvidia does now

Bomb
#5
(09-12-2018, 12:45 AM)apoppin Wrote:
(09-12-2018, 12:36 AM)SickBeast Wrote: What I am hearing is that Volta cost nVidia billions to develop.  Who knows how much Turing cost them.  However the prices we are seeing could simply be nVidia charging what they have to in order to break even.  I'm sure it was not cheap to develop.  This could be the new cost of entry.  But the way I see it is that ray tracing is a ground breaking and revolutionary feature.  nVidia may in fact be losing money on it no matter what they charge.  They probably look at ray tracing's development as a sunk cost.  Future generations will be cheaper because they feature will have already been developed and they will simply have to scale it up.

So apoppin you are right.  Early adopters will pay for it and they will love it.  I don't think I will be one of those people, barring something unforeseen.

I would say Turing cost Nvidia a fortune.  It is the biggest change to Nvidia's architecture since T&L.

Damn right it is expensive.  

I am reading some things that you just don't have access to yet.  Wait a few more days.  

But keep the negativity coming, Greg.  It's your recent pattern to hate new things (Win 10/DX12/resolutions higher than 1080P) - but why not?
- you have a good gaming system that suits you.  When you feel like upgrading, you will.  Until then, it's sour grapes no matter what Nvidia does now

Bomb

It's ok, you can call me out on it also. I have been pretty negative about it too. Greg tells it like it is and the way he sees it in my experience. I have no problem with anything he has said. It has merit. Clearly we don't know what we are talking about yet, but based on the performance snippets we have seen, combined with the price, there is good reason for gamers to at the very least take a wait-and-see approach with Geforce Turing.
#6
(09-12-2018, 12:59 AM)SickBeast Wrote: It's ok, you can call me out on it also.  I have been pretty negative about it too.  Greg tells it like it is and the way he sees it in my experience.  I have no problem with anything he has said.  It has merit.  Clearly we don't know what we are talking about yet, but based on the performance snippets we have seen, combined with the price, there is good reason for gamers to at the very least take a wait-and-see approach with Geforce Turing, at the very least.

All of us have an issue with pricing. It is a huge jump over the last generation.

Gstanford is just sour grapesing ... you cannot build negativity on snippets of information - especially to draw conclusions about "cheating" with IQ when the subject is Virtual Reality.

Wait and see is good. But badmouthing something new on incomplete information is ridiculous.
Beee
#7
(09-12-2018, 01:07 AM)apoppin Wrote:
(09-12-2018, 12:59 AM)SickBeast Wrote: It's ok, you can call me out on it also.  I have been pretty negative about it too.  Greg tells it like it is and the way he sees it in my experience.  I have no problem with anything he has said.  It has merit.  Clearly we don't know what we are talking about yet, but based on the performance snippets we have seen, combined with the price, there is good reason for gamers to at the very least take a wait-and-see approach with Geforce Turing, at the very least.

All of us have an issue with pricing.  It is a huge jump over the last generation.

Gstanford is just sour grapesing ... you cannot build negativity on snippets of information - especially to draw conclusions about "cheating" with IQ when the subject is Virtual Reality.

Wait and see is good.  But badmouthing something new on incomplete information is ridiculous.
Beee
If you look at it from our standpoint, we both already have great hardware that we paid decent prices for that can run all our games. nVidia was quite clear about how much performance we can expect from the new cards, and they also told us the price (which turned out to be a "fake" price like something that AMD would do and has done). That gives us enough reason to form an opinion and a formulation. Ray tracing could be and probably is the cat's meow and the bee's knees and all that fun stuff. But the fact remains that for the time being it's only going to be available in a handful of games, and from what we have seen it's either going to have terrible implementation (Tomb Raider), or weak performance (Battlefield V). I get that Battlefield V is going to look photo realistic with ray tracing turned on. What gets me is that we will have to run the game at 1080p resolution in order to enjoy the privilege. Quite frankly that just plain sucks. Going from 1080p to 4k with quadruple the resolution is worth a whole lot to me. Perhaps more than the visual gain from adding ray tracing.

In the case of Tomb Raider, based on what they have shown, they have not given gamers a compelling reason to be interested in the ray tracing feature. Not for that game. I did not see enough added detail or anything special in the shadows that made me think I should drop $1600CAD on a fancy new graphics card just so I can do that.

If all that is sour grapes, so be it. This could be an opportunity for nVidia to reflect on what kind of information they release at their presentations, along with the price of their cards. I am really big into their hardware and I'm a pretty big enthusiast, but I'm pretty "meh" about Geforce Turing at this point for the reasons I have outlined above.

The *biggest* problem for me is the fake price. If they are going to charge $1000 for the RTX 2080 Ti, fine. But at least be honest with us. The $1200USD price is complete madness and completely unfair to gamers. Like I said, it's an AMD move and I'm extremely disappointed to see it coming from nVidia.
#8
(09-12-2018, 01:42 AM)SickBeast Wrote: If you look at it from our standpoint, we both already have great hardware that we paid decent prices for that can run all our games.  nVidia was quite clear about how much performance we can expect from the new cards, and they also told us the price (which turned out to be a "fake" price like something that AMD would do and has done).  That gives us enough reason to form an opinion and a formulation.  Ray tracing could be and probably is the cat's meow and the bee's knees and all that fun stuff.  But the fact remains that for the time being it's only going to be available in a handful of games, and from what we have seen it's either going to have terrible implementation (Tomb Raider), or weak performance (Battlefield V).  I get that Battlefield V is going to look photo realistic with ray tracing turned on.  What gets me is that we will have to run the game at 1080p resolution in order to enjoy the privilege.  Quite frankly that just plain sucks.  Going from 1080p to 4k with quadruple the resolution is worth a whole lot to me.  Perhaps more than the visual gain from adding ray tracing.

In the case of Tomb Raider, based on what they have shown, they have not given gamers a compelling reason to be interested in the ray tracing feature.  Not for that game.  I did not see enough added detail or anything special in the shadows that made me think I should drop $1600CAD on a fancy new graphics card just so I can do that.

If all that is sour grapes, so be it.  This could be an opportunity for nVidia to reflect on what kind of information they release at their presentations, along with the price of their cards.  I am really big into their hardware and I'm a pretty big enthusiast, but I'm pretty "meh" about Geforce Turing at this point for the reasons I have outlined above.

The *biggest* problem for me is the fake price.  If they are going to charge $1000 for the RTX 2080 Ti, fine.  But at least be honest with us.  The $1200USD price is complete madness and completely unfair to gamers.  Like I said, it's an AMD move and I'm extremely disappointed to see it coming from nVidia.

First of all, your entire first paragraph of complaints are full of errors. That is the propaganda that AMD PR pushes into social media.

And I don't get the fake price argument. Explain please.
#9
(09-12-2018, 01:57 AM)apoppin Wrote: I don't get the fake price argument.  Explain please.
Have a look here:

https://www.canadacomputers.com/search/p...00_557_559&item_id=124169

That is what we are dealing with as Canadians. That is the Asus Turbo card which traditionally has been the most basic and the cheapest of all the nVidia cards. They are charging $1600CAD for it. That converts over to $1223USD. The prices are similar in the USA and in other countries. It's brutal. I remember you calling out AMD for shenanigans like this with the Vega cards and I wish you the best of luck in handling this one diplomatically with nVidia. I don't know how I could do it, personally. It's complete and utter BS. Quite frankly if the cards were actually selling for the $1000USD MSRP, I would think long and hard about ordering one. But at this bananas crazy inflated "fake" price I'm not interested. I'm a pretty no nonsense guy and things like this really irk me. Like I said, if they want to charge more for their cards, fine. That's there business and this is the free market. But to inflate the cards' pricing across the board by $200 is nonsense and it is not fair to gamers. Period.
#10
Excuse me but this same thing happened with Vega (and the price never came down until this Late Summer), with Pascal, with Kepler and Maxwell ... and every card before it.

These are PRE Launch prices. Complain again in a couple of months after there is good stock and the first rush of buying fever subsides.

You should have been the first in line at the Nvidia store to preorder *two* 2080 Tis - and then sell one immediately for $1800 and recover much of your costs - if you want to play that game.


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